regshoe: Close-up of a grey heron, its beak open as if laughing (Heron 2)
[personal profile] regshoe
Charlie is my darling, the Young Chevalier...

Flight of the Heron (under the title The Jacobite Trilogy) is doing very well in Yuletide sign-ups—3 requests and 4 offers at present :D

Next week we'll read the second half of Part II, chapters 3 and 4.

Date: Oct. 23rd, 2021 08:25 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
Oh, oops, forgot to read the chapters...will do so now.

Their eyes met, the warm Southern brown and the blue

I don't know if you noticed that in White Cockades, but Edward Prime-Stevenson obviously thinks the Prince has blue eyes! I trust Broster's research over his...

Date: Oct. 23rd, 2021 11:15 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] hyarrowen
A friend long ago suggested that the short, pregnant word is 'spy'.

I love these two chapters - the old, windy city, the dark and the crowding buildings. It's claustrophobic and tense as soon as they get out of the ballromm. Most especially I love Lady Easterhall and Miss Cochran, resourceful, tough Jacobite ladies both.

Ewen thinks that it would take a certain amount of skill and courage to lead a raid from the Castle, and behold! Thrff jub gheaf hc. Gung fxvyyshy naq pbhentrbhf fbyqvre ur'f rapbhagrerq orsber. Gur raqvat bs Puncgre VV vf n terng yvar, gubhtu V qba'g yvxr gung Xrvgu vf fb hacyrnfnag gb gur fretrnag jura ur ernyvfrf gur zvfgnxr va vqragvgl. Ubj jnf gur fretrnag fhccbfrq gb xabj juc vg jnf be jnfa'g? Rira Xrvgu qbrfa'g ernyvfr jub ur'f tbg ng svefg. Vg'f cebonoyl gur bayl guvat V qvfyvxr nobhg Xrvgu.

Date: Oct. 24th, 2021 08:51 am (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
'Spy'? That's certainly an idea...and it would of course be supremely insulting! But I don't think the circumstances really fit--nothing in BPC's thoughts, which Broster does show us, indicates that he thinks Ewen isn't loyal, just that he's loyal in his own irritating, overprotective way. I would have expected something more along the lines of 'nursemaid', but that's too long and doesn't begin with 's'.

Not replying in rot13 since it's not a spoiler for future chapters, but: I do wonder why Keith uses the title 'Prince' at the end! Properly he should say 'Pretender'. A little slip of the tongue from spending too much time among Jacobites, Keith? *g*

Date: Oct. 24th, 2021 11:22 am (UTC)
hyarrowen: (Action Hero)
From: [personal profile] hyarrowen
The poet Patricia Beer was similarly confused. In her memoir, Mrs Beer's House, she says that her sister suggested 'shit.' Which nearly caused a lively argument. But I think that if a poet can't figure it out, the rest of us have very little chance.

Date: Oct. 24th, 2021 02:15 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
Surely one would not say 'hampering myself with a shit'.

Okay, I've gone through all the S words in this slang dictionary, and found these insults:

SAUCE BOX. A term of familiar raillery, signifying a bold
or forward person.
SCAB. A worthless man or woman.
SCOUNDREL. A man void of every principle of honour.
SCRUB. A low mean fellow, employed in all sorts of dirty work.
SLAG. A slack-mettled fellow, one not ready to resent an
affront.

The only one that fits the situation is 'sauce box', but I don't know if it really sounds right. Possibly 'scab', but that does seem a bit harsh! 'Slag' is about the opposite of Ewen at that point. : )

Date: Oct. 25th, 2021 05:58 am (UTC)
hyarrowen: (Action Hero)
From: [personal profile] hyarrowen
The Beer sisters, and their mother, were reading the book in the early 1930s, much closer in time to publication date than we are, and they couldn't work it out. It'll probably remain forever a mystery. Personally I'm still inclined to 'spy' - in the sense of "You're Lochiel's eyes and ears amongst my staff and that's going to curtail my freedom to do whatever I like," rather than the espionage/enemy agent sense. I suppose 'snitch' would be nearer the mark in present-day lingo. It's obviously a dreadful insult anyway.

Date: Oct. 28th, 2021 03:01 am (UTC)
cahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cahn
"Snitch" was my guess as to the mysterious s-word! Though maybe it's too modern a word for that?

Date: Oct. 28th, 2021 06:29 am (UTC)
hyarrowen: (Action Hero)
From: [personal profile] hyarrowen
Online etymology says "informer," 1785, probably from underworld slang meaning "the nose" (1700), which apparently developed from an earlier meaning "fillip on the nose" (1670s). Snitcher in same sense is from 1827. More etymologically-inclined persons might be able to share more light on it!

So it's not far off the date, but perhaps a bit too slangy for a Prince who grew up in Rome.

Definitely getting there, though.

Date: Oct. 24th, 2021 10:33 pm (UTC)
ethelmay: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ethelmay
I thought "shit" or "sod."

Date: Oct. 25th, 2021 04:53 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
I looked up the origin of 'sod', and wow, I didn't know it was originally short for 'sodomite'! According to the OED, the earliest use is from 1814, but there are still examples of it used that way in the 20th century. And then later in the 19th century it also became 'a general term of abuse or contempt for a person (originally a man), esp. someone irritating, difficult, or troublesome', which is pretty much what I thought it meant, though it's not a word in my active vocabulary.

Date: Oct. 26th, 2021 12:07 am (UTC)
ethelmay: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ethelmay
The OED's earliest use isn't necessarily the earliest there is, just the earliest the definition-writers were able to find - they are always on the lookout for earlier ones. One difficulty that occurs to me is that there may have been some overlap with "sot" (for which there are far earlier attestations), which could mean a foolish fellow as well as a drunken one. But I think there's a definite implication that they can't spell it out, because it's rude, which does argue for something more like "shit" or "sod" than like "spy." However well "spy" fits otherwise (and in fact I do think it's one of the most likely possibilities), I wouldn't have thought it would be so unmentionable an insult. And I like the idea of Broster working in a glancing reference to sodomy without saying so.

Date: Oct. 24th, 2021 11:17 am (UTC)
killclaudio: Benedick is holding Beatrice back while she struggles with him, on an orange background with crossed swords. (Default)
From: [personal profile] killclaudio
Oh, I actually quite like the suggestion of 'spy'? The Prince is annoyed at Ewen butting in where he isn't wanted and asking questions, and there aren't that many short words beginning with 's' that would express that.

I did wonder if the word might be 'scrub', which seems to be a sort of all-purpose insult for someone stupid and useless, but that doesn't really fit the scene, since Ewen is actually being ultra competent - too competent, in the Prince's view. :)

Date: Oct. 25th, 2021 04:58 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
The definition of 'scrub' I found from the 18th century was 'a low mean fellow, employed in all sorts of dirty work,' which doesn't really fit! But yeah, 'spy' interpreted that way instead of as an enemy agent does work better.

Date: Oct. 26th, 2021 04:07 pm (UTC)
impala_chick: (GK || BN)
From: [personal profile] impala_chick
Yes, I loved how the story pivoted to one of political intrigue! And Ewen is so different from Keith, so this was a good reminder of how Ewen can be forthright and almost pushy when faced with others who he thinks are doing something wrong... Even the prince! He was hardly like that with Keith.

Date: Oct. 24th, 2021 09:42 am (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
I like the title of this part ('Floodtide'). And the melody of the song should go like this, if it's the same as 'To Daunton Me'.

There might have been a sense of doomed gaiety to the scene at the ball, given how things will go later in the war, but since Broster rather goes for the comedy in the historical exposition that comes before it, we get a lighter tone. Which I appreciate! I like Ewen and Alison's banter, and then the whole atmosphere of spy antics, with disguises, secret passages, etc. It's a lot of fun, and I also enjoy seeing what Ewen's loyalty to the Prince means in practice: it doesn't mean uncritical devotion. He's quite willing to argue with BPC when he thinks he's wrong, and isn't willing to be insulted.

And of course there's Keith turning up again! Of which more in the next chapter. : D

O'Sullivan doesn't look very sympathetic through Ewen's eyes, which is realistic in the sense that there was definitely some dissension among BPC's followers. O'Sullivan wasn't just quartermaster in the sense that he was responsible for supplies--he was also responsible for coordinating staff work. According to Duffy he was very competent, and the quick tempo of the invasion of England was partly his work.

'The nightly stenches of Edinburgh proper', heh. There was a great description in a 1730's collection of letters from an English officer in Scotland that I recently read, saying how 10 pm was apparently the agreed-upon time for everyone to pour the contents of their chamber-pots from their windows. The hapless visitor did not know that this was a bad time to be out in the street...

I had to look up the Darnley reference ('Ewen went into the bedchamber which had once been the ill-fated Darnley's'), which I didn't know, and here it is.

Do you think amber is a good color for Ewen? Hmm. I guess it's a warm color that might go along with his auburn hair, but my instinct would have been blue or green, to contrast more with his hair. But really I don't know how people chose colors back then...and it's not like I'm great at fashion, anyway.

Date: Oct. 24th, 2021 11:26 am (UTC)
hyarrowen: (Action Hero)
From: [personal profile] hyarrowen
I looked up colours for red haired, blue eyed people last year, and came up with blue and green, yes, and also dark brown and snuff-colour. I don't think either of those last two would be very suitable for a ball, but amber is close enough to snuff-colour that it might work.

Date: Oct. 25th, 2021 04:56 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
Ah, my instincts were right, then. : ) Keith, on the other hand, looks good in red, I think...

Date: Oct. 25th, 2021 08:51 pm (UTC)
hyarrowen: (Action Hero)
From: [personal profile] hyarrowen
Keith looks good in anything.

:D

Date: Oct. 26th, 2021 05:32 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
Hee! I am a huge fan of Keith myself, but I think you may in fact be his greatest fan. : D

Date: Oct. 24th, 2021 11:44 am (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
Oh, of course--his hair is powdered, I forgot that! And it would affect the color. Such a weird thing to do...

Date: Oct. 26th, 2021 04:12 pm (UTC)
impala_chick: (Default)
From: [personal profile] impala_chick
Now I'm trying to Google pictures of what powdered hair looked like...

Date: Oct. 26th, 2021 07:35 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
Oh my god. I hadn't actually realized what went into making those hair styles. *boggles* The person in that video is brave! I'm not sure I'd dare to try that--well, I couldn't, since my hair is less than a centimeter long, but I wouldn't dare if I had long hair. Somehow it seems typical that women had to go through all that, and men could just put on a wig!

Well, I had actually already planned in an upcoming fic to write more about the time in Edinburgh, some of it from Alison's POV, so I've got to work this in. : ) But surely Alison doesn't have a hairdo like this in the scenes at Ardroy? It seems impractical.

*checks the book* We have Who was this pretty Miss Grant with the blue fillet in her dark hair? And a fillet is a ribbon to tie up the hair, according to the OED. So it seems her hair isn't powdered. I wonder if she would wear a snood, which unmarried Scottish women seem to have done?

Date: Oct. 26th, 2021 12:13 am (UTC)
ethelmay: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ethelmay
Having red hair would also affect his complexion, which was presumably not powdered. The 1788 Trumbull portrait of Thomas Jefferson shows him with an amber sort of waistcoat.

Date: Oct. 26th, 2021 04:12 pm (UTC)
impala_chick: (Default)
From: [personal profile] impala_chick
Oh interesting info. I liked how Ewen is not just a blind follower too, which definitely goes with what we know about him so far. I was a little confused about the animosity towards some of BPCs crew, like O'Sullivan. that made for some funny situations though.

Date: Oct. 24th, 2021 11:27 am (UTC)
killclaudio: Benedick is holding Beatrice back while she struggles with him, on an orange background with crossed swords. (Default)
From: [personal profile] killclaudio
I really enjoyed all the language in these chapters, especially the Scots and the mixing in of French phrases. 'Go braw' is such a wonderful expression, and when I looked it up I found out that if you're having lovely weather it's a 'braw day', so I will now be using that. :) (I already knew 'dreich', the opposite, which unfortunately is the weather we're having right now.)

Have you seen Green's Dictionary of Slang and Timelines of Slang? FotH doesn't use a lot of slang, but I'm having fun reading all the 18th century insults.

Date: Oct. 24th, 2021 12:00 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
Regshoe: I didn't actually know it was related to 'bra'! But of course.

I do like that 'braw' is used for Alison--my first association to it is the meaning that is given as 'Handsome, of fine physique; “stout, able-bodied, fit for warfare”' in the Scots dictionary, but then there's 'Well or gaily dressed; fine, as applied to clothes', which I suppose is the meaning Broster is using here, and also just generally 'worthy'.

I had Alison thinking that Ewen has a braw backside when he's naked in one of my fics. *g* Which I hope is correct usage.

Thanks for the slang links! Also, here's a slang dictionary from 1788.

Date: Oct. 28th, 2021 02:59 am (UTC)
cahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cahn
Eeeee these chapters were great, ramping up the conflict! I enjoyed seeing the other side to BPC after all the Jacobites have been building him up as The Most Awesome Guy Ever, and that Ewen is seeing it as well. But poor Ewen! trying to be sensible and cautious and everyone else just mowing right over him!

And also that cliffhanger, aaaaa! I promised myself I couldn't read further until I posted on these chapters :D

Date: Oct. 28th, 2021 07:57 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
So glad you're enjoying the book! : D

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