Recent reading

[regshoe]

Passions Between Women: British Lesbian Culture 1668-1801 by Emma Donoghue (1993). I thought this one would make an intriguing contrast to Surpassing the Love of Men, and indeed it did! In fact Donoghue specifically brings up Faderman's book and argues against her conclusions in several places, including presenting some new relevant evidence—a bit of the historical process which was interesting to see. The book is an overview of what people in Britain wrote and read about lesbians and love between women in the 'long' eighteenth century, approaching the topic from various different angles. The basic argument is that attitudes were not at all simple; there was a great deal of complexity and outright contradiction in how people viewed love between women, as well as a lot of variation in the ideas and situations written about. Thus, for instance, Donoghue argues that the line between socially-accepted romantic friendships and socially-threatening sexual relationships was not as clearly-defined as Faderman thought it was—the same relationship could be viewed with praise as one or with suspicion as the other by different people, or even by the same person at different times. I was especially intrigued by Donoghue's argument that, contrary to the idea that 'sexual orientation as identity (rather than behaviour)' is purely a modern invention, the eighteenth century did have some sort of concept(s) of the lesbian as a distinct type of person, although their ideas were different from ours. The focus on literary culture is both fascinating and frustrating—I enjoyed getting so much detail about what people were writing (and by extension, as Donoghue argues, what contemporary women who loved women might have formed their own ideas about themselves through reading), but would have liked to know more about what was actually happening in people's real lives!

The Secret Commonwealth by Robert Kirk (1691). Robert Kirk was a seventeenth-century Scottish clergyman who believed in fairies, and spent some time collecting local folklore and tales about the fairies and other traditional Scottish beliefs; according to legend he was himself stolen away by the fairies, never more to be seen upon earth, shortly after writing this book. The Secret Commonwealth is a collection of folklore and an argument about the existence, nature and history of the fairies (the Sleagh Maidh), left in manuscript form by Kirk and later brought to wider attention by Walter Scott and Andrew Lang, who wrote a lengthy introduction to accompany it. I thought it would make good research reading for my current supernatural Flight of the Heron WIP. It contains lots of fascinating information on Scottish folklore, including a lot about the workings of the second sight as well as the fairies, and much of this was indeed useful for my fic! It's fascinating historically too, as an instance of how supernatural beliefs outside orthodox religion were regarded by educated people in the seventeenth century—Kirk's arguments about fairies as part of religion make interesting reading in their own right (and are of obvious relevance to Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, amongst other fandoms). Lang, writing in the late nineteenth century, discusses Kirk's ideas in the context of then-contemporary spiritualism and 'psychical research', which I also enjoyed—it's one of the more weirdly interesting aspects of that period.

Lobsters on the Agenda by Naomi Mitchison (1952). This is basically Mitchison's post-war Scottish Highland answer to South Riding. It's about the life of a small village on the west coast of Scotland, presented through the context of local government and of the various associations, committees and meetings formed and attended by the residents. Insofar as it has a main character, the main character is Kate Snow, a doctor who has given up her work and come back to live in her home village after her husband was killed in the war. She is now a District Councillor, in which capacity she, along with some of the other characters, is trying to arrange for the village to get a Village Hall; meanwhile, a mystery arises over who stole some lobsters from one of the local fishermen. Mitchison portrays village life in all its frustrating narrowness and petty meanness, and all its loving warmth and beauty—much of the book consists of very meandering everyday conversations, out of which it manages to build a general sense and to draw conclusions quite strongly, and I enjoyed it very much. I was struck by the influence of religion, specifically evangelical Presbyterianism, in the village—quite a contrast both to the Jacobite Highlands of the eighteenth century about which I've been reading so much, and to England in the same period (I remember some Methodism in South Riding, but that's not the same thing at all). The idea of objecting to a Village Hall of all things as sinful seems quite quaint now, but it's very serious business in this book. At one point the village receives a visit from the Highland Panel, of which Mitchison was a member, and she appears in the book in the position she really held and gets to opine about some of the questions of society and progress and 'the Highland way of life' that it brings up, which was amusing—well, that's one way of developing one's themes as an author...!


I've also been working my way through the once_upon_fic source sheet, which contains some excellent fairy tales and an intriguing collection of ballads. I will sort out my sign-up at some point in the next few days... Relatedly, hurtcomfortex nominations have opened, which is very exciting. I've made sure to get Flight of the Heron in there, and will come back and think about the rest of what I might hypothetically want to request or offer later on—can't have too much exchange overlap.

Comments

[isis]

Oh, Lobsters on the Agenda sounds great.

[oursin]

On the persistence of what one might call Calvinist Culture in that part of Scotland, well after WWII, it's one of the areas Callum Brown looks at in The Battle for Christian Britain: Sex, Humanists and Secularisation, 1945-1980, which is very good on regional diversity and the importance of looking beyond London. Boy, it was still very very dour.

(The Methodism in S Riding would be different, because it had the notion of achieving saving grace, rather than predestination.)

[theseatheseatheopensea]

"The Secret Commonwealth" is such an interesting book! I also enjoyed the bits about the second sight--well, maybe not the one about women's predictions being less accurate than men's! But still, it's definitely good for fic research! :D (Have you come across these two books? If not, they sound like something you might like and/or find useful!)

[starshipfox]

I think I HAVE "Passions Between Women", but I haven't actually read it -- it's good to hear you found it interesting and illuminating, despite frustrating at times.

[osprey_archer]

Suddenly Naomi Mitchison is popping up all over my friends list on DW, first To the Chapel Perilous and now Lobsters on the Agenda, and every time her books sound so good! Clearly a sign from the heavens that I must read her.

[regshoe]

I definitely recommend it!

[regshoe]

That does sound interesting! I had a vague impression that the Highlands get more Calvinist from the later eighteenth century and stay that way for a long time, but don't know about the details at all.

[regshoe]

I was rather indignant at the bit where Kirk quotes someone else saying that women and men are equally gifted with the second sight, then goes out of his way to say this person is wrong! Ooh, no, I've not come across those books, but they look very interesting and relevant—thank you :)

[regshoe]

I suppose the decision to focus on literary culture, while frustrating, was just the way Donoghue decided to approach the topic, and is an interesting way of reading history in itself. I'll just have to find some other books that are more about specific real details!

[regshoe]

Hehe, definitely :D I hope you enjoy whichever of her books you pick up—they're so diverse and all very good indeed.

[oursin]

Mitchison wrote so much and in so many genres! She was one of those rather daunting figures who (okay, she was born into privilege - except for the whole V Woolf 'daughters of educated men' provisos - and lived to over 100) wrote vast amounts, travelled extensively, was politically active in various directions, had an open marriage and (for her class and period) quite a large family.

I feel it is because of all that So Much that she is only now getting something like her due - e.g. academic studies - because she crossed so many areas.

I do recommend her memoirs - Small Talk: Memoirs of an Edwardian Childhood, All Change Here: Girlhood and Marriage and You May Well Ask: A Memoir 1920-1940 - which she wrote in her 70s and are very much looking back historically/anthropologically.

(Okay, I was a Mitchison fangirl Before It Was Cool...!)

[edwardianspinsteraunt]

Oh I love Mitchison's memoirs! Seconding the recommendation :D Her account of her education at the Dragon School is particularly fascinating (and tragic in some ways).

[luzula]

I am declaring comment amnesty on your previous reading post, which I had meant to reply to. But anyway this book about love between women in the past sounds like a better one! I have got to read it, and I'm glad to see my university library has it. Does the literary focus include people's letters, or only published works? Anyway, I wish I had read it before I wrote my FotH poly fic, since that had a f/f relationship in it. Now probably I'll discover all sorts of mistakes that I made... It can be so hard to capture historical attitudes towards queer relationships (or het ones, for that matter!).

And I see that we are passing recs back and forth, since I have already read both of your other books here. : )

[regshoe]

It was your Lesbian Historic Motif podcast/website that introduced me to this book! I was reading around some of the entries and noticed that several of the stories cited it—then I was thinking I would find this sort of thing easier to take in from a book than from a website, so why I didn't I just read that one... :)

There are a few bits from letters, but most of the focus is on published texts (as part of literary culture).

It can be so hard to capture historical attitudes towards queer relationships (or het ones, for that matter!).

Agh, I know—it's something that's always eluded me in my own writing, which is very frustrating, because it's a fascinating topic and there's so much story and theme potential in figuring out how particular favourite characters might deal with it. Although the next of my lesbian history books is a volume of Anne Lister's diaries, which is extremely valuable and interesting from that angle!

[osprey_archer]

Oh, I do love memoirs... Getting into a new author with an enormous backlog is a dangerous business!

[luzula]

Ah, okay! Would you say the early parts of the Faderman book are valuable, even if the later ones are less relevant for the 18th century?

Agh, I know—it's something that's always eluded me in my own writing, which is very frustrating, because it's a fascinating topic and there's so much story and theme potential in figuring out how particular favourite characters might deal with it.

I mean, I try, but I think I probably fail--hopefully fail in ways that still make for enjoyable stories, but still. We'll see what you think of my take on it in the story I'm writing now...

And actually, as I said, I find it difficult in het relationships as well, because it's not like the ways in which people viewed those relationships have stayed the same throughout time, either!

[regshoe]

Would you say the early parts of the Faderman book are valuable, even if the later ones are less relevant for the 18th century?

Yes, I think so! There was some very interesting and thought-provoking information and discussion, even if the arguments don't all hold up.

We'll see what you think of my take on it in the story I'm writing now...

Ooh, that sounds intriguing! I'll look forward to it. I suppose my story also tackles the subject in a way, although not very definitely—anyway, we'll see :D

And actually, as I said, I find it difficult in het relationships as well, because it's not like the ways in which people viewed those relationships have stayed the same throughout time, either!

That is very true! I don't really write het fic myself, but it must present its own challenges. Although I imagine contemporary fiction would be more useful in giving an idea of attitudes, at least to the sort of het relationships that were socially acceptable enough to be the romances in novels.

[luzula]

Although I imagine contemporary fiction would be more useful in giving an idea of attitudes, at least to the sort of het relationships that were socially acceptable enough to be the romances in novels.

Well...I've read very few historical het romance novels as a genre, but I doubt they are always accurate as what historical attitudes were actually like. *g*

[regshoe]

Agh, sorry, I think I wasn't clear there!—I meant fiction written at the time, which would potentially show how the author/the original audience thought about the sort of relationships they portrayed. No, I don't think romance novels are likely to be very reliably accurate :D

[luzula]

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood you! Yes, I agree with your point. : )

[ethelmay]

Even fiction written at the time wasn't necessarily accurate, depending. I mean, there are some zillion novels in which a first kiss comes only after accepting a proposal of marriage, and while I can accept that may have been how it worked sometimes, I have always doubted it was how it worked most of the time. What's more, no-first-kiss-until-engaged survives in contexts where it makes no sense any longer (e.g., Peter Wimsey and Harriet Vane, who've both had previous affairs - you can argue the peculiar circumstances of their courtship, but it's still pretty thin).

[regshoe]

That's true! I suppose it gives more of an impression of what was seen as ideal, and figuring out the relationship between those ideals and what real people actually did is not necessarily trivial.