regshoe: A grey heron in flight over water (Heron)
[personal profile] regshoe
Charlie chose the place himsel', the graveyard of Culloden...

Well, it looks like Keith's prophecies about the fate of the Jacobites, at least, weren't too inaccurate...

Next week we'll read chapters 3 and 4 of part III.
Page 1 of 4 << [1] [2] [3] [4] >>

Date: Nov. 6th, 2021 06:25 pm (UTC)
osprey_archer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] osprey_archer
Laird and Lady Mackintosh must have had some EXTREMELY chilly dinners together. I'm just imagining the two of them glaring daggers at each other down a long table.

I LOVE the part where Ewen flings himself in front of a projectile that isn't even close to hitting Lochiel. The loyalty is SO extra, and the bit where he's just lying on the ground in so much pain that it hurts to breathe, but content because he's been assured that Lochiel isn't hurt... EWEN. EWEN. And poor Lochiel is like "Oh my god if he had died when I WASN'T EVEN IN DANGER how could I ever live with myself."

In general I just love the really intense loyalty that swirls all around Ewen: if he's not flinging himself into danger to protect someone (the Prince, Lochiel), someone else is going above and beyond out of loyalty to Ewen (Lachlan usually).

Date: Nov. 6th, 2021 08:15 pm (UTC)
philomytha: airplane flying over romantic castle (Default)
From: [personal profile] philomytha
For all that I adore all the Ewen/Keith stuff, as a teenager my absolute favourite bit of the entire book was the bit where Ewen throws himself in front of the cannon fragment to protect Lochiel, and comes round to find himself cradled in Lochiel's arms. It is just SO dramatic and perfect, Ewen is so happy to have the chance to die for Lochiel, and the bit where his first reaction is to check that Lochiel's okay... I don't ship it, but I do adore it as the absolute pure form of platonic loyalty kink. And of course it sets up just how happy Ewen would be to die for Lochiel, to give meaning to what happens later on.

Date: Nov. 6th, 2021 08:20 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
Ugh, the sense of DOOM in these chapters! I mean, it's really built into the history (I've definitely felt it while reading history books about it, too) but Broster makes the most of it. And I think it was a good choice not to include the actual battle. We can imagine it, after that lead-up.

I suppose, in the scene with Alison and Ewen before they get married, that Broster is going for one of her "conflicts of loyalties" themes, with Alison being torn between going to her ill father and staying to marry Ewen. In broad strokes I like it, but I think it might have worked better through Alison's eyes, since she's the one having the conflict. Although I do feel for Ewen, thinking that he may well be going to die soon, as well! But he doesn't want to say so. Also I do wonder why Alison hesitates even before getting the letter? I don't think we're meant to infer it's because she doesn't love him and doesn't want to marry him. My theory, I suppose, is that she doesn't want to admit what Ewen is thinking, namely that Ewen might be about to die as the army is defeated, and they should get what happiness they can, while they can.

This bit is lovely: From the quay Ewen went straight to Lochiel's head-quarters and reported himself for duty. Two hours later his body was marching out of Inverness in the van of the Cameron reinforcements. Where his soul was he hardly knew.

I do also love all the loyalty stuff with Lochiel. This time around I noticed this bit, where Ewen is down at heart because of Alison leaving, and: Lochiel, who knew him well and did observe him closely, gave him as much to do as possible. Awww. I love this indication of Lochiel caring for Ewen. And then later after throwing himself in the way of the splinters, he wakes up in Lochiel's arms--awww. (I can't see Ewen/Lochiel though, it smacks too much of parent/child incest for me, what with Lochiel being such a father figure for Ewen.)

Broster is taking a stand on some controversial topics regarding the battle: whether they should have made a stand at the Spey, which battlefield would have been the best, whether the Franco-Irish officers were competent or not. I note that mostly Duffy does not agree with her on these issues, though I'm sure opinions vary.

Date: Nov. 6th, 2021 11:21 pm (UTC)
osprey_archer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] osprey_archer
That scene is the pure distillation of platonic loyalty kink and it's SO perfect. Throws himself in front of Lochiel and awakens CRADLED IN LOCHIEL'S ARMS.

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 12:35 am (UTC)
sanguinity: woodcut by M.C. Escher, "Snakes" (Default)
From: [personal profile] sanguinity
I was unfamiliar with the history of the Rising (which included being entirely innocent of Culloden) on my first read-through, and I have to say, Broster built the foreboding doom very well: the exhaustion and hunger and demoralization was extremely evocative, and whatever was going to happen after the end of the chapter couldn't possibly be good, that much was clear. However, I'm torn on her choice to entirely skip the battle and its aftermath, even in summary. Perhaps this comment is better left for next week, but I was left floundering in quite a big hole of bewildered ?????? by the time-and-pov skip of the coming chapter. (That said, I acknowledge I was probably never her imagined target audience, so.)

I really liked the chapter with Alison. I love how loving and affectionate their relationship is, and for all Ewen's talk in the Prologue of carrying her off, he's ultra-careful to never let himself be intimidating or cruel with her, however desperately he wants them to be married while they still can. (I'm reminded of that description near the beginning of the Gleam in the North: Like many large, strong men, Ewen Cameron was extraordinarily gentle with creatures that were neither. It's something that I love about Ewen.) I'm glad that they had their two days together here, for courage against everything that's coming. And here is the second time a ring is given as a gift! Gurer ner n ahzore bs fznyy zbzragf guebhtubhg gur abiry jurer Xrvgu vf pnfg cnenyyry gb Nyvfba -- gur bofreingvba gung cebcurpvrf bsgra fubj bar'f fcbhfr, gur jnl Rjra guvaxf bs obgu gur fuvryvat naq uvf jrqqvat avtug nf ubyl, gur jnl vg vf Xrvgu jub raqf hc pneelvat arkg gb uvf urneg gur ybpx bs Rjra'f unve zrnag sbe Nyvfba -- naq V guvax guvf tvsg bs n evat nf n jrqqvat cerfrag vf cneg bs gung frevrf jurer Xrvgu'f fvtavsvpnapr vf yvxrarq gb Nyvfba'f.

As for Ewen almost blowing himself up for love of Lochiel, and Lochiel's grief over Ewen nearly having done so, and also the various MacLarens' similar devotion to Ewen caught in glimpses throughout these two chapters... Ewen is so unlike Keith in this respect: he is deeply embedded in a wide circle of people who love deeply, devotedly, and unreservedly. Loving is a thing that you do as a part of living, as natural and necessary as breathing air, and is deeply entangled with duty and honour and loyalty, inseparable from any of them. It is such a marked contrast to Keith's emotional isolation, and I think that contrast is fundamental to several things that are coming.

And I have to say, Lachlan's perversity is growing on me, this read-through. He does what he wants (but only out of devotion to Ewen, of course!), and whenever Ewen tries to rein him in, Lachlan immediately goes for extreme overreaction and threatens suicide, thereby ensuring that he can continue to do what he wants. It's 100% clear that Ewen hasn't the least idea how to manage him. Lrf, V'z jryy njner guvf jvyy nyy raq va grnef, ohg sbe gur zbzrag, uvf novyvgl gb pbzcyrgryl syhzzbk Rjra znxrf zr ynhtu.

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 12:37 am (UTC)
sanguinity: woodcut by M.C. Escher, "Snakes" (Default)
From: [personal profile] sanguinity
Broster sure as fuck knows the tropes that make fanfic writers' hearts beat, and is gratifyingly free and earnest with using them. :-)

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 02:03 am (UTC)
osprey_archer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] osprey_archer
Yes, I love that Ewen is so gentle in how he uses his strength. And I think that fits in with the pattern you mention where Ewen's relationship with Keith parallels & echoes his relationship with Alison: when Keith is his prisoner (even though he's a rather troublesome prisoner!) Ewen is always gentle and courteous to him, never using his strength to intimidate, just as he is gentle with Alison here when he's asking her to hurry up their wedding.

And yes on the contrast between Ewen's loving circle of friends and family versus Keith's emotional isolation! And that ties into the fact that Ewen is more open than Keith (generally speaking; as we saw last week, he can lie quite well when he needs to!): unlike Keith, he doesn't feel the need to be on guard all the time.

How DO you solve a problem like Lachlan? Clearly the problem is quite beyond poor Ewen!

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 03:31 am (UTC)
hyarrowen: (Action Hero)
From: [personal profile] hyarrowen
What springs out at me most in these two chapters is how messy real history can be, as opposed to fiction. All that marching and counter-marching is just so bitty. Compare that to the strong narrative drive of the prophecy and it's easy to see why people prefer reading a novel about the '45, whether it's FotH, Outlander or any number of bodice-rippers, to reading about the real thing.

I can quite understand why DKB didn't want to write about the battle. She'd served on the Western Front, after all, as did many of her readers.

As for Ewen and Alison's relationship, I generally like it in canon, though I'm not so sure about the prevaricating and putting-off and issuing of orders that we get here. Try doing that sort of thing to Keith, Ewen, and see what you get!

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 03:35 am (UTC)
hyarrowen: (Action Hero)
From: [personal profile] hyarrowen
Hey, two people on opposite sides of the '45 nevertheless passionately in love and treating each other honourably as prisoners, it can happen. :P

LOL!

It was quite common for members of the same family to be on opposing sides, or so I understand. That way the family holdings would remain in the family. It also ensured that the Highlands, or Scotland as a whole, didn't rise as one man to throw out the invader. I think I saw a scene in one of Neil Oliver's (?) programmes on Scotland which showed the Mackintoshes in that light.

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 10:00 am (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
It was quite common for members of the same family to be on opposing sides, or so I understand.

Yes, totally. Partly from genuine conflict, such as in the Murrays of Atholl, where the first son was a Jacobite, who was dispossessed by the government in favor of the second who was a Hanoverian, and then the first one returned with BPC to take back his heritage. And then there's the third son who became one of BPC:s military commanders.

But often it was absolutely an insurance strategy. It's unclear to me whether John Cameron of Fassefern stays out of the '45 because he genuinely is against it, or whether it was one of these agreed-upon strategies.

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 11:56 am (UTC)
hyarrowen: (Action Hero)
From: [personal profile] hyarrowen
A Cameron of Fassefern ended up getting killed at Quatre-Bras, at Waterloo - dying for a Hanoverian king. But that's what happens when Napoleon comes along.

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 12:45 pm (UTC)
greerwatson: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greerwatson
"I don't know how much Broster's original target audience in 1925 could be assumed to know about the '45"

My impression is that, through the first half of the twentieth century, it's not so much that people necessarily remembered all the details of the actual history, even if they learned them at school, so much as that they became entranced in childhood with the myth of the Jacobite Rebellion.

Tales of Bonnie Prince Charlie (like knights in shining armour, Mary Queen of Scots, and gallant Royalists vs wicked Roundheads) were mainstays in romantical children's historical fiction, at least in Britain. This means that, to contemporary readers, Culloden would indeed be a familiar battle, at least by name, along with the exciting story of the Prince's escape afterwards.

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 03:57 pm (UTC)
hedgebird: (Default)
From: [personal profile] hedgebird
Broster is taking a stand on some controversial topics regarding the battle: whether they should have made a stand at the Spey, which battlefield would have been the best, whether the Franco-Irish officers were competent or not. I note that mostly Duffy does not agree with her on these issues, though I'm sure opinions vary.

Oh interesting. I'm glad you're flagging these things! It's so easy to take even a novel as authoritative, when you (i.e. I) haven't read any alternative accounts.

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 04:27 pm (UTC)
hedgebird: (Default)
From: [personal profile] hedgebird
V'ir arire xabja dhvgr jung gb guvax bs Nyvfba orvat hfurerq bss-fgntr ng guvf cbvag. Fur'f gur guveq znva punenpgre, ohg V fhccbfr gur znva pbasyvpg va ure fgbelyvar/eryngvbafuvc jvgu Rjra vf "pvephzfgnaprf qrynl bhe jrqqvat" naq nsgre gung'f erzbirq, nccneragyl gurer'f ab zber cybg sbe ure. And then on the other hand, the relationship that the novel is structured around, Ewen & Keith, is full of built-in conflict. IDK what I'm trying to say here except that I guess Broster had widely distinct tastes in Official Couple and Platonic Smarm relationships.

On a completely different note, I like a good battle scene and have always felt a bit cheated not getting them! The failed night raid is interesting too, though.

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 04:56 pm (UTC)
sanguinity: woodcut by M.C. Escher, "Snakes" (Default)
From: [personal profile] sanguinity
Ah, that makes a lot of sense. The only place I'd ever heard of the Rising before this was in Stevenson's Kidnapped, which I presume is an example of the kind of thing you're talking about.

I was assuming that history education of a century and more back used to put more emphasis on "dates of famous battles" than mine did -- and of course that a British education covers the history of the English and Scottish thrones, which an American education does not at all. But yes, if it was part of the cultural osmosis of a British childhood, then she wouldn't need to summarize it at all.

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 05:20 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
I was left floundering in quite a big hole of bewildered ?????? by the time-and-pov skip of the coming chapter.

I didn't know the history beforehand, either, but I can't remember being confused? I think I just assumed they lost the battle. But then, I was reading mostly for the Keith/Ewen and probably accepted not understanding everything. I do think that Broster, in 1925, assumed everyone would know the history.

Ewen is so unlike Keith in this respect: he is deeply embedded in a wide circle of people who love deeply, devotedly, and unreservedly. Loving is a thing that you do as a part of living, as natural and necessary as breathing air, and is deeply entangled with duty and honour and loyalty, inseparable from any of them.

I have definitely noticed this as well, but you put it beautifully. ♥

Re: Lachlan, it's worth noting that despite all his theatrical threats, ng gur raq, ur qbrfa'g whfg guerngra fhvpvqr ohg nofbyhgryl sbyybjf guebhtu ba vg. But yeah, he's a difficult character. He and Ewen are not just a laird and his gillie, they're like siblings as well, which complicates things. Sibling relationships can have so much baggage to them. I think I've tended to "smooth out" those difficulties a bit while writing fic, partly because I feel bad for him--he's the character whose loyalty gets the least reward, difficult though he is.

No one has so far written the fic where Ewen ends up in a relationship with Keith, and Lachlan finds out. OMG, the trainwreck. I think Lachlan would be incredibly upset and jealous, not least because Keith, unlike Alison, has no proper role in Ewen's life--Keith isn't part of the network of clan connections in which Ewen is embedded. Of course, it's difficult for Lachlan not to notice how important Keith is to Ewen anyway, but he doesn't have to fully face it, if he doesn't know the full extent of it.

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 05:26 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
I like [personal profile] sanguinity's point about the parallels between Keith and Alison, and I like the way you add to them, as well: that's a good point about Ewen's gentleness both with Keith and with Alison. Gentleness in the sense of being a gentleman. : )

Although we do see him spoiling for a fight as well, both in Edinburgh and during the war! But of course that's within a context where it's honourable for him to use force.

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 05:30 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
Also re: Ewen and Keith's relationships to love, Ewen is actually even more of an orphan than Keith is! Both his parents died when he was young, but with the network of extended family and foster-family, he grows up well loved. While Keith, with his mother still alive, does not...
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