regshoe: A grey heron in flight over water (Heron)
[personal profile] regshoe
Charlie chose the place himsel', the graveyard of Culloden...

Well, it looks like Keith's prophecies about the fate of the Jacobites, at least, weren't too inaccurate...

Next week we'll read chapters 3 and 4 of part III.

Date: Nov. 6th, 2021 06:25 pm (UTC)
osprey_archer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] osprey_archer
Laird and Lady Mackintosh must have had some EXTREMELY chilly dinners together. I'm just imagining the two of them glaring daggers at each other down a long table.

I LOVE the part where Ewen flings himself in front of a projectile that isn't even close to hitting Lochiel. The loyalty is SO extra, and the bit where he's just lying on the ground in so much pain that it hurts to breathe, but content because he's been assured that Lochiel isn't hurt... EWEN. EWEN. And poor Lochiel is like "Oh my god if he had died when I WASN'T EVEN IN DANGER how could I ever live with myself."

In general I just love the really intense loyalty that swirls all around Ewen: if he's not flinging himself into danger to protect someone (the Prince, Lochiel), someone else is going above and beyond out of loyalty to Ewen (Lachlan usually).

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Date: Nov. 10th, 2021 05:25 am (UTC)
cahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cahn
I didn't like these chapters as much as I've been enjoying the other ones -- it's still good, but there's no Keith, lol -- but also I feel like Broster does like her tropes, and there's all kinds of tropes spelling impending doom about the whole Alison and Ewen thing, which worries me. (Don't spoil me :) ) As opposed to Culloden, which I do know is impending doom and which I enjoyed more, in a sense, because I do know what's coming. (The kettledrums of Cumberland's advance, as you say! And "the young man for whom the flower of the North stood here to be slain," :(((((( )

I would love to hear more about your issues regarding the significance of Alison's role in the book and in Ewen's life, but... later :)

Ewen and Lochiel is of course lovely, and I'm looking forward to seeing that hiding place :P (With all the caring description given to that cave on the mantel...)
Edited Date: Nov. 10th, 2021 05:25 am (UTC)

Date: Nov. 6th, 2021 08:15 pm (UTC)
philomytha: airplane flying over romantic castle (Default)
From: [personal profile] philomytha
For all that I adore all the Ewen/Keith stuff, as a teenager my absolute favourite bit of the entire book was the bit where Ewen throws himself in front of the cannon fragment to protect Lochiel, and comes round to find himself cradled in Lochiel's arms. It is just SO dramatic and perfect, Ewen is so happy to have the chance to die for Lochiel, and the bit where his first reaction is to check that Lochiel's okay... I don't ship it, but I do adore it as the absolute pure form of platonic loyalty kink. And of course it sets up just how happy Ewen would be to die for Lochiel, to give meaning to what happens later on.

Date: Nov. 6th, 2021 11:21 pm (UTC)
osprey_archer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] osprey_archer
That scene is the pure distillation of platonic loyalty kink and it's SO perfect. Throws himself in front of Lochiel and awakens CRADLED IN LOCHIEL'S ARMS.

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Date: Nov. 6th, 2021 08:20 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
Ugh, the sense of DOOM in these chapters! I mean, it's really built into the history (I've definitely felt it while reading history books about it, too) but Broster makes the most of it. And I think it was a good choice not to include the actual battle. We can imagine it, after that lead-up.

I suppose, in the scene with Alison and Ewen before they get married, that Broster is going for one of her "conflicts of loyalties" themes, with Alison being torn between going to her ill father and staying to marry Ewen. In broad strokes I like it, but I think it might have worked better through Alison's eyes, since she's the one having the conflict. Although I do feel for Ewen, thinking that he may well be going to die soon, as well! But he doesn't want to say so. Also I do wonder why Alison hesitates even before getting the letter? I don't think we're meant to infer it's because she doesn't love him and doesn't want to marry him. My theory, I suppose, is that she doesn't want to admit what Ewen is thinking, namely that Ewen might be about to die as the army is defeated, and they should get what happiness they can, while they can.

This bit is lovely: From the quay Ewen went straight to Lochiel's head-quarters and reported himself for duty. Two hours later his body was marching out of Inverness in the van of the Cameron reinforcements. Where his soul was he hardly knew.

I do also love all the loyalty stuff with Lochiel. This time around I noticed this bit, where Ewen is down at heart because of Alison leaving, and: Lochiel, who knew him well and did observe him closely, gave him as much to do as possible. Awww. I love this indication of Lochiel caring for Ewen. And then later after throwing himself in the way of the splinters, he wakes up in Lochiel's arms--awww. (I can't see Ewen/Lochiel though, it smacks too much of parent/child incest for me, what with Lochiel being such a father figure for Ewen.)

Broster is taking a stand on some controversial topics regarding the battle: whether they should have made a stand at the Spey, which battlefield would have been the best, whether the Franco-Irish officers were competent or not. I note that mostly Duffy does not agree with her on these issues, though I'm sure opinions vary.

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Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 03:57 pm (UTC)
hedgebird: (Default)
From: [personal profile] hedgebird
Broster is taking a stand on some controversial topics regarding the battle: whether they should have made a stand at the Spey, which battlefield would have been the best, whether the Franco-Irish officers were competent or not. I note that mostly Duffy does not agree with her on these issues, though I'm sure opinions vary.

Oh interesting. I'm glad you're flagging these things! It's so easy to take even a novel as authoritative, when you (i.e. I) haven't read any alternative accounts.

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Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 12:35 am (UTC)
sanguinity: woodcut by M.C. Escher, "Snakes" (Default)
From: [personal profile] sanguinity
I was unfamiliar with the history of the Rising (which included being entirely innocent of Culloden) on my first read-through, and I have to say, Broster built the foreboding doom very well: the exhaustion and hunger and demoralization was extremely evocative, and whatever was going to happen after the end of the chapter couldn't possibly be good, that much was clear. However, I'm torn on her choice to entirely skip the battle and its aftermath, even in summary. Perhaps this comment is better left for next week, but I was left floundering in quite a big hole of bewildered ?????? by the time-and-pov skip of the coming chapter. (That said, I acknowledge I was probably never her imagined target audience, so.)

I really liked the chapter with Alison. I love how loving and affectionate their relationship is, and for all Ewen's talk in the Prologue of carrying her off, he's ultra-careful to never let himself be intimidating or cruel with her, however desperately he wants them to be married while they still can. (I'm reminded of that description near the beginning of the Gleam in the North: Like many large, strong men, Ewen Cameron was extraordinarily gentle with creatures that were neither. It's something that I love about Ewen.) I'm glad that they had their two days together here, for courage against everything that's coming. And here is the second time a ring is given as a gift! Gurer ner n ahzore bs fznyy zbzragf guebhtubhg gur abiry jurer Xrvgu vf pnfg cnenyyry gb Nyvfba -- gur bofreingvba gung cebcurpvrf bsgra fubj bar'f fcbhfr, gur jnl Rjra guvaxf bs obgu gur fuvryvat naq uvf jrqqvat avtug nf ubyl, gur jnl vg vf Xrvgu jub raqf hc pneelvat arkg gb uvf urneg gur ybpx bs Rjra'f unve zrnag sbe Nyvfba -- naq V guvax guvf tvsg bs n evat nf n jrqqvat cerfrag vf cneg bs gung frevrf jurer Xrvgu'f fvtavsvpnapr vf yvxrarq gb Nyvfba'f.

As for Ewen almost blowing himself up for love of Lochiel, and Lochiel's grief over Ewen nearly having done so, and also the various MacLarens' similar devotion to Ewen caught in glimpses throughout these two chapters... Ewen is so unlike Keith in this respect: he is deeply embedded in a wide circle of people who love deeply, devotedly, and unreservedly. Loving is a thing that you do as a part of living, as natural and necessary as breathing air, and is deeply entangled with duty and honour and loyalty, inseparable from any of them. It is such a marked contrast to Keith's emotional isolation, and I think that contrast is fundamental to several things that are coming.

And I have to say, Lachlan's perversity is growing on me, this read-through. He does what he wants (but only out of devotion to Ewen, of course!), and whenever Ewen tries to rein him in, Lachlan immediately goes for extreme overreaction and threatens suicide, thereby ensuring that he can continue to do what he wants. It's 100% clear that Ewen hasn't the least idea how to manage him. Lrf, V'z jryy njner guvf jvyy nyy raq va grnef, ohg sbe gur zbzrag, uvf novyvgl gb pbzcyrgryl syhzzbk Rjra znxrf zr ynhtu.

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 02:03 am (UTC)
osprey_archer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] osprey_archer
Yes, I love that Ewen is so gentle in how he uses his strength. And I think that fits in with the pattern you mention where Ewen's relationship with Keith parallels & echoes his relationship with Alison: when Keith is his prisoner (even though he's a rather troublesome prisoner!) Ewen is always gentle and courteous to him, never using his strength to intimidate, just as he is gentle with Alison here when he's asking her to hurry up their wedding.

And yes on the contrast between Ewen's loving circle of friends and family versus Keith's emotional isolation! And that ties into the fact that Ewen is more open than Keith (generally speaking; as we saw last week, he can lie quite well when he needs to!): unlike Keith, he doesn't feel the need to be on guard all the time.

How DO you solve a problem like Lachlan? Clearly the problem is quite beyond poor Ewen!

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Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 05:20 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
I was left floundering in quite a big hole of bewildered ?????? by the time-and-pov skip of the coming chapter.

I didn't know the history beforehand, either, but I can't remember being confused? I think I just assumed they lost the battle. But then, I was reading mostly for the Keith/Ewen and probably accepted not understanding everything. I do think that Broster, in 1925, assumed everyone would know the history.

Ewen is so unlike Keith in this respect: he is deeply embedded in a wide circle of people who love deeply, devotedly, and unreservedly. Loving is a thing that you do as a part of living, as natural and necessary as breathing air, and is deeply entangled with duty and honour and loyalty, inseparable from any of them.

I have definitely noticed this as well, but you put it beautifully. ♥

Re: Lachlan, it's worth noting that despite all his theatrical threats, ng gur raq, ur qbrfa'g whfg guerngra fhvpvqr ohg nofbyhgryl sbyybjf guebhtu ba vg. But yeah, he's a difficult character. He and Ewen are not just a laird and his gillie, they're like siblings as well, which complicates things. Sibling relationships can have so much baggage to them. I think I've tended to "smooth out" those difficulties a bit while writing fic, partly because I feel bad for him--he's the character whose loyalty gets the least reward, difficult though he is.

No one has so far written the fic where Ewen ends up in a relationship with Keith, and Lachlan finds out. OMG, the trainwreck. I think Lachlan would be incredibly upset and jealous, not least because Keith, unlike Alison, has no proper role in Ewen's life--Keith isn't part of the network of clan connections in which Ewen is embedded. Of course, it's difficult for Lachlan not to notice how important Keith is to Ewen anyway, but he doesn't have to fully face it, if he doesn't know the full extent of it.

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Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 03:31 am (UTC)
hyarrowen: (Action Hero)
From: [personal profile] hyarrowen
What springs out at me most in these two chapters is how messy real history can be, as opposed to fiction. All that marching and counter-marching is just so bitty. Compare that to the strong narrative drive of the prophecy and it's easy to see why people prefer reading a novel about the '45, whether it's FotH, Outlander or any number of bodice-rippers, to reading about the real thing.

I can quite understand why DKB didn't want to write about the battle. She'd served on the Western Front, after all, as did many of her readers.

As for Ewen and Alison's relationship, I generally like it in canon, though I'm not so sure about the prevaricating and putting-off and issuing of orders that we get here. Try doing that sort of thing to Keith, Ewen, and see what you get!

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 04:27 pm (UTC)
hedgebird: (Default)
From: [personal profile] hedgebird
V'ir arire xabja dhvgr jung gb guvax bs Nyvfba orvat hfurerq bss-fgntr ng guvf cbvag. Fur'f gur guveq znva punenpgre, ohg V fhccbfr gur znva pbasyvpg va ure fgbelyvar/eryngvbafuvc jvgu Rjra vf "pvephzfgnaprf qrynl bhe jrqqvat" naq nsgre gung'f erzbirq, nccneragyl gurer'f ab zber cybg sbe ure. And then on the other hand, the relationship that the novel is structured around, Ewen & Keith, is full of built-in conflict. IDK what I'm trying to say here except that I guess Broster had widely distinct tastes in Official Couple and Platonic Smarm relationships.

On a completely different note, I like a good battle scene and have always felt a bit cheated not getting them! The failed night raid is interesting too, though.

Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 05:49 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
IDK what I'm trying to say here except that I guess Broster had widely distinct tastes in Official Couple and Platonic Smarm relationships.

Broster does have an Official Het Couple in Sir Isumbras at the Ford which gets the built-in conflict that Ewen/Keith has here. Very satisfying, though the conflict is resolved quicker than for Ewen and Keith. OTOH, there's also the slashy couple Laurent and Aymar in The Wounded Name which is entirely composed of loyalty kink and hurt/comfort and doesn't have any external conflict, or at least, the conflict that exists is that Aymar doesn't want to tell Laurent his secret, and Laurent trusts against all odds that despite appearances, his secret is nothing dishonourable. So it's not quite as clearcut as that!

Re: Alison's disappearance, I have a fic planned where Ewen and Alison get married in Edinburgh instead and Alison then follows the army as several Jacobite wives did. And then she's involved in the events that follow, and there is eventual Alison/Ewen/Keith.

On a completely different note, I like a good battle scene and have always felt a bit cheated not getting them!

Heh. I never expected to get so much into the military history, but it is fascinating!

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Date: Nov. 7th, 2021 07:03 pm (UTC)
sanguinity: woodcut by M.C. Escher, "Snakes" (Default)
From: [personal profile] sanguinity
Alison: V guvax ure ebyr va gur abiry vf fgebatyl Qblyvfg, va gung nyy guebhtu gurfr svefg cnegf jura Rjra vf qvfzvffvir bs gur cebcurpl, fur'f Oebfgre'f gbby sbe xrrcvat vg ba gur cntr: fur'f vavgvnyyl gur bar orvat gbyq nobhg vg nal qrgnvy, fur'f gur bayl cbi punenpgre jbeelvat nobhg vg, naq fur'f gur bar oevatvat vg hc sbe qvfphffvba nf vg fgnegf gb or shysvyyrq. Nsgre gur fuvryvat, Rjra fgnegf gb perqvg gur cebcurpl uvzfrys, naq guhf ur naq Xrvgu pna cresbez nyy gubfr ebyrf orgjrra gurz, naq fur'f abg arrqrq gb xrrc vg ba gur cntr nalzber.

Fur'f nyfb hfrq va n flzobyvp jnl, nf n ersrerapr cbvag sbe yvxravat ure naq Xrvgu'f eryngvbafuvcf gb Rjra. Ohg gung qbrfa'g fb zhpu erdhver ure gb or ba-fgntr, bayl gung fur rkvfg. Fb lrnu, V guvax hfurevat ure bss-fgntr ng guvf cbvag vf n znggre bs ure univat freirq ure Qblyvfg checbfr va gur aneengvir.

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Date: Nov. 10th, 2021 10:46 am (UTC)
tgarnsl: profile of an eighteenth century woman (Default)
From: [personal profile] tgarnsl
Hello, hello! I'm very late to the party (and to this week's reading), so I should probably introduce myself a bit. Name's Tgarnsl (after the proper pronunciation of 'topgallantsail') and I fell into this fandom a few weeks back when I came across it on AO3, whereupon I promptly went 'oh, looks like there are some fun evening reads in this tag, I should read the last chapter of the book to get to grips with the characters so I don't have to read the whole novel.' Which resulted in reading the final chapter, wondering who the hell this Keith character was, and going back to the first chapter so I could read the book properly. And here I am, several weeks later, alarmingly invested in this novel and its characters.

I wanted to comment on last week's chapters, as those are set in Edinburgh, and as someone who lived in the city centre for several years (and visited this summer) I enjoyed reading about the places I know quite well. Nonetheless, I enjoyed this week's chapters: the conflict between Ewen and Alison and their respective duties and loyalties is interesting, even if I would have preferred to have read it through Alison's POV. I get the sense that they're both aware of what's coming, even if neither of them want to openly acknowledge it, but their reactions to it are quite different. I find it interesting how Broster carefully sets up Alison's eagerness to get married in the early part of the book and then has her feel so conflicted about it here — it's clear she still wishes to get married, but the state of the war is clearly taking its toll on her. I can't help but wonder if her reluctance is, at least in part, based in the fear of becoming a widow so soon after marriage. Ewen, in contrast, seems to have the complete opposite view: that any time married is precious, and that they should seize life with both hands while they have it. I find the scenes of their brief married life quite sweet; one thing I really like about their pairing is that there is the real sense that they are partners in all senses of the world — they both love and respect the other tremendously, and it seems that there's an easy companionship to their marriage that makes their ensuing heartbreak over their parting all the more understandable.

I found Chapter 2 quite gloomy, as you might expect. Broster makes it clear that this isn't going to end well, and by now most of the characters recognise it too, even if they do not acknowledge it. Ewen, for his part, seems to be dissociating from everything around him, in part due to his parting from Alison, in part due to the sorry state of the war. I find it interesting how Ewen's loyalty seems to shift in this chapter, away from the Prince and towards Lochiel — he will always be loyal to the Prince, but Lochiel is his family, and his concern for the aftermath of Culloden is not so much what will happen to the Prince, but what will happen to Lochiel. The last paragraph or so of the chapter is terribly poignant in its imagery. I don't ever feel that Broster is ever in danger of purple prose, even though her writing is descriptive and lush. It's a talent I quite admire.

I did enjoy the brief mention of Keith when Ewen is at Ardroy. It was a good way to subtly remind the reader where the story is headed, that even though this particular chapter of the Jacobite Uprising is swiftly drawing to a close, there is still plenty of story left.

Date: Nov. 10th, 2021 05:18 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
Hi and welcome to the fandom! : D

Oh, naval terms...I've been recording an audiobook with a few naval terms in it, and they're always shortened, and never in quite the way you expect.

And here I am, several weeks later, alarmingly invested in this novel and its characters.

Ha ha, I recognize this! That first reading experience was something.

I can't help but wonder if her reluctance is, at least in part, based in the fear of becoming a widow so soon after marriage. Ewen, in contrast, seems to have the complete opposite view: that any time married is precious, and that they should seize life with both hands while they have it.

Yes, I think you're right, and that this explains the conflict, such as it is, about whether to get married right away. I do like Alison a lot, but by now I feel like the Alison in my head is half my own character, since I wrote a longfic where she had a lot of POV (more than in canon).

I did enjoy the brief mention of Keith when Ewen is at Ardroy. It was a good way to subtly remind the reader where the story is headed, that even though this particular chapter of the Jacobite Uprising is swiftly drawing to a close, there is still plenty of story left.

Yes! We're only halfway through the story, really. So much slashy goodness left.
Edited Date: Nov. 10th, 2021 05:19 pm (UTC)

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Date: Nov. 13th, 2021 07:03 am (UTC)
hyarrowen: (Action Hero)
From: [personal profile] hyarrowen
Hello there!

This is something that hadn't occurred to me before: I can't help but wonder if her reluctance is, at least in part, based in the fear of becoming a widow so soon after marriage. Ewen, in contrast, seems to have the complete opposite view: that any time married is precious, and that they should seize life with both hands while they have it.

Ewen isn't the one who risks finding himself pregnant and alone, after all. If Ardroy is lost, Alison will be on her own in France, with a sick father, a brother in captivity and no-one to support her. It's very like the situation in Persuasion in which Wentworth's job is so dangerous that he's not a good marriage prospect. She's taking a real risk which Ewen, and up till now, I, didn't see.

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